Backdoor Roth helps you to avoid the harsh income restrictions and then contribute to your retirement basket, but only if you receive at least $135,000 per year. Just watch out for the 18th month mark, or do it around the same date every year for simplicity, that’s what I intend to do in future. Or do only traditional IRAs, Sep IRAs, and Simple IRAs count toward pro rata, and not Roth IRAs? Where as on the phone with Fidelity they seemed to understand and agree with my initial plan to roll my 2018 SEP into individual 401k to avoid problems with Pro-rata calculation. I’m not even sure you have to have earnings, do you? 4 easy steps to your backdoor Roth IRA. See below for more details. A fully funded Roth IRA should be a goal for every optometrist, every year. Here is my article on individual 401(k)s but be aware that their websites often say one thing and their representatives another. As simple as this all seems, there are a few ways to screw up the process. If you are under 50, you can contribute $5,500 per year ($6,000 in 2019). Any way you could add a “print” button to make it easier to print out your articles in an “easy to print” format? The pro-rata rule only matters for conversions. no to mention if you have the aforementioned 100K you get the keys to the best cash back credit card in the industry.. not to mention a ton of flexibility with your money. I’m continually updating the data as readers tell me about it. Thanks. The Backdoor Roth IRA Made Easy. It is very straightforward. 2. Hence, this backdoor Roth FAQ. Since the money was already taxed, the taxable amount on your distribution is zero. I’m curious to hear about the cash back card. How to Apply for a Suncoast Credit Card Online? They’re right that you COULD convert to a Roth IRA, but it wouldn’t be what you really want due to the pro-rata calculation. You can do the 2017 contribution until April 15. Honestly I’ve seen you write about this a lot of times, but I’ve always felt if something seemed a little sketchy or non-traditional that it probably wasn’t a good idea and would come back to bite me in some way, shape or form… so despite understanding the logic, I’ve never done it. I’d call HR and ask exactly what will be taken out under your current settings. The pro-rata rule isn't the only … Is having the account closed such a bad thing, such as will it reflect on your credit score? I noticed he never filed the 8606 form. Comment below! Once you mix them, you’re not getting the cream back out, it all comes out as a mixture. So I have about 20K in a traditional IRA from before I qualified to contribute to my group’s 401k. Should I hold current amount in traditional IRA then add the additional $5500 for this new year in a few months and convert everything to a Roth IRA later in the year? There is no “counting” on the taxes. You must get rid of the old IRA. Please let me know if am thinking wrong ? And my second question is – Since my income is high and i have already paid my tax on that $5500 ( that i plan to put in trad ira), doesnt it make sense to convert it to roth ira every year ? All that is left now is to go do it for your spouse's account (if any.). Any questions about it? But, if the Roth 401(k) is not an option, or you just want to put away even more money to grow tax-free, and you are making too much money for the Roth IRA, enter the “backdoor Roth IRA.” This is not an actual type of account, but rather an IRS-sanctioned strategy for high-earners. If your account’s status becomes active, you can credit your account with an annual contribution based on your limit. Calculating the Value of Your Backdoor Roth Contributions, IRA Recharacterizations (I Should Have Back Door Rothed! As an individual contractor what will be my best option for purchasing health insurance for family? That was helpful. I’m not sure what a dependent savings account is, but perhaps consider a UTMA/UGMA for money you want your kids to have. Why I have to get rid of old IRA (rolling into 401K) before doing that? I know of no more encouraging fact than the unquestionable ability of man to elevate his life by conscious endeavor. How dumb are our tax rules? You can do one big "deposit" the same time every year, a bit every month, or whenever you have extra to put in. Just hit “Accept” and it will take you to the next screen which looks like this: Note that this particular screenshot is from my wife's account (which is all invested in the Small Cap Value Index Fund.) You can't directly contribute to a rIRA; you'll have to backdoor annually. I was quite peeved. Remember that for a high earner with a retirement plan at work, a traditional IRA contribution is NOT deductible. If you are less than 50 years, you’re allowed to contribute $6,000, whereas if you are above 50 years, you shouldcontribute $7,000. 2) High interest debt When you exchange/ convert to some other funds like Vanguard Total Stock Exchange, does it create any issues? A bad candidate for a Backdoor Roth… Makes MORE than $135,000 / year (or $199,000 as married joint filers) Can keep funds in Roth IRA for at least five years; Anticipates being in a HIGHER income bracket upon retirement; Make LESS than $135,000 / year (or $199,000 as married joint filers) Needs the funds in Roth IRA within five years Once you have gone through the backdoor process of opening a Roth IRA, your contributions and distributions to the account will follow that of a normal Roth IRA account. I started an traditional IRA with Vanguard last year and placed $5500 in it with the thought of converting it to a Roth IRA but never did. There are other ways you can get to the same place. Do you have an IRA account? Convert the non-deductible traditional IRA to a Roth IRA by … In fact, I would have converted as I went along each year rather than saving it all up. (rather than the original amount I rolled over from my old 401k). I suppose that would be an expense. 3. I was just reading through this fantastic article on back door Roths and came across this comment. On Sunday January 3rd I put in an order for an IRA contribution. I assumed we couldn’t hide the SEP-IRAs in a individual 401k since we have employees and I hadn’t thought of the new EIN. Page 1 (below) shows a “distribution” from your non-deductible IRA. united-states ira roth-ira penalty roth-conversion. I don’t really see an advantage to doing this. If it's your first time, they can be confusing. If no, you should start by opening one. I retire early and have a few years when my taxable income is zero or minimal. I wish you can do a similar detailed post about rebalancing portfolios at the end of the year and how to harvest tax losses. I became ineligible to contribute more to the trad IRA once I qualified to the group’s 401k and have been maxing the 401 since then. Straighten out your financial life today! I am sure you are aware that government makes everything more complex. If you … Thanks! January is backdoor Roth IRA season. What is a traditional Roth IRA? 3) HSA I do it at Fidelity every year. I”m not sure what you mean by an IRA through a former employer. The deadline for contributions is April 15th of the following year. 7) 02 The Travel Rewards CC by BofA gets you 2.625% cash back on everything with no limits if you have $100k combined between BofA checking/savings and/or ME. I have no outstanding Traditional IRAs (I previously rolled them over into my 401k) so I can convert to Roth at any time. Generally speaking, you won’t run into a whole bunch of bogleheads around the Merrill Lynch office — you’re better off opening a Schwab, Fidelity, Vanguard, etc. I have a situation. I suppose that would be an expense.” I have almost $550,000 in my Traditional IRA. Do the math on a Roth growing at the same rates you showed vs putting 9-10k/yr (pretax Roth funds) into a defined benefit plan. However, if you have a 401K, or can open an individual 401K, you can then roll that SEP money into the 401K without any tax bill, and then do Backdoor Roths for the rest of your career. If it’s still far off, by that time your $55k can become $255k. I wish I had something like this post 5 years ago. You’re thinking of an FSA or something. Alternatively, you can recharacterize your 2013 conversion and redo the conversion in 2014 (must wait 30 days) after you clear up the SEP. I have zero money in a traditional IRA, no SEP, Simble, or rollover or anything. Roth IRAs don’t count. Thinking to open IRA at Merrill, since i do most of my banking at BoFa, anyone has encounter difficulties doing the Back Roth IRA with them?, if so I might just go with Vanguard to avoid the hassle. And if you have enough money with them it’s the best deal in the business. The only accounts I’ve ever had in the past are a 401k, my wife’s 403b, and a traditional Roth IRA from when I was underneath the income threshold. My parents helped me open an IRA when I was 10. Don't forget to do it or there is a $50 penalty. It is taxable. You could do it all in 2018. If you convert half of the account, you pay taxes on $10,000, and $2500 comes along tax-free. In that case will 100% of the premium be tax deductible? Sounds like it might be time to move on to a taxable account. I didn’t realize until afterwards that it would complicate tax matters for backdoor roth conversions going forward. The backdoor IRA isn't for everyone. Further Reading: For a full step by step tutorial on your first Backdoor Roth IRA click here. 7) Everything else depending on priorities, Great post. I agree, if you hire an accountant, make sure they correctly fill out the 8606 form. It is basically a four step process. Most fund companies, including Vanguard, don’t close the account just because there is nothing in it. and then I’d have to go through the hassle of setting up a new account again if I wanted to do this the next year. You can add money to it the same year, you just have to convert the whole thing or roll it into a Roth IRA. You don't want any losses or much of a gain between the contribution and conversion step. For example, can I contribute 5500 on Jan 2 2017 for my 2017 contribution and then on Jan 3 convert to Roth for 2017 and that is it? However, Vanguard did not let me actually invest the new money in the Roth IRA. I wanted to get rid of the SEP in order to facilitate doing tIRA–>Roth conversions in the future. You can delete this post after you read it. The difference, though, is that withdrawals from an inherited Roth are tax free. I just got a 2013 1099-R in the mail from vanguard and was crapping my pants. I leave zero money behind in Prime Money Market Fund in a traditional IRA every year. It’s a sole proprietorship. The account sits empty for 12 months, rinse, repeat. A couple of minutes online and no money. Unfortunately I’m too late to make the conversion for 2017 tax year. It shouldn’t create any issues to do that. If I have a 403b from my employer and a Roth IRA only, do I need to open a traditional IRA, make a contribution to that traditional IRA and then rollover to Roth IRA? It could be either or both. Should I only do it for the amount in my trad IRA that is above my nondeductible basis? All that matters is the SEP IRA balance on December 31. My 2013 1099R has the following in it: Employers have nothing to do with IRAs. Learn how your comment data is processed. No, you aren’t subject to a penalty for opening a Roth IRA just because your employer has a 403(b). Whoever you talked to at Vanguard is apparently not familiar with the pro-rata calculation demanded by line 6 of Form 8606. What am I missing? Your Roth IRA contributions will need to go through the “backdoor” many times as you build your portfolio. Again, there exists another set of income phase-outs included in the Traditional IRA deductions. Also available on Audible! I contributed $5500 to a Vanguard traditional IRA in December and then shortly after converted it to a Roth. Don’t have enough info to say. Don’t want to pay too much pro rata. Or call them and ask them to leave a few cents of accumulated interest that doesn’t get capitalized. Perhaps the best explanation is the cream in the coffee example. The IRS clarified in early 2018 that no waiting period is required between the contribution and conversion steps of the Backdoor Roth IRA and essentially has given its blessing on the whole process. What do you mean you don’t own a business? You can make 2013 contributions from Jan 2013 to April 2014. Vanguard used to let you do this over two days. Just click the “buy” link at the top left or bottom right and you'll go to this page: Put $6,000 in for step 1, then use the drop down menu to indicate your settlement fund in step 2. It is just that the tax bill is zero for it since you’ve already paid taxes on the $6,000 and couldn’t claim it as a deduction because you make too much money. Why not just let everyone have a ROTH regardless of income and make it easier? Ensure that you file returns for funds converted from both deductible and non-deductible sources before the deadline hits. Just want to make sure, that once the TIRA gets recharachterised as Rollover at Fidelity, I can do backdoor in 2018 thru the then empty Vanguard TIRA without pro-rata consequences? You’re confusing a standard Roth conversion with a Backdoor Roth IRA. If you are yet to open a Roth account, you should ensure you open a standard one. As she does not work currently, I cannot set up an individual 401K with Fidelity to accept rollovers for her deductible IRAs. Did I F something up on my taxes last year (never filled out an 8606 last year, I did do a backdoor Roth for the first time in 2012), F something up in the timing of my conversion to the Roth, or is this a non issue that gets worked out with the 8606 form? I’d like to roll this over to a Roth, and would expect, since it’s already been taxed, it would be considered a non-qualified IRA, and as such, the conversion would be taxfree, as you outlined above. Look for the little buttons on the lower right corner of each post. Hmmm…..That’s a great idea. You do not have to wait any period of time between the contribution and conversion. So on Day 2, you go to your traditional IRA and hit the “convert to Roth IRA button”. In fact, any additional conversion you do requires no waiting period. I fear I have really screwed up my attempt at the backdoor Roth conversion. Thanks, your website is awesome–you helped me find a solution to something that’s been bugging me for a couple of years! And then again, in 4/2017, you indicate that you made $5,500 contribution. If not, switch. Don’t worry about recharaterizing then if you are going to convert the SEP to Roth in 2014. Vangurad put my Rollover money into a TIRA and I was clueless what the difference was and Vanguard did not tell me either when accepting my $$. 1) You have your ‘cost basis’ backwards, but point taken. 2) That’s fine if it’s coming up shortly. I'm not really sure why you have to do this twice (since you're just transferring the amounts from lines 8 and 11 and then subtracting them), but that's what the form calls for. Any thoughts on this… will it make things complicated tax-wise.. any workarounds? The key to filling out the 8606 correctly when you make a contribution after the calendar year is to recognize that the contribution step is reported for the tax year and the conversion step is reported for the calendar year. If you are married, each of you can contribute to the age-appropriate limit. Now you need to ask yourself if you would rather the money grow tax-free in the future or be taxed as it grows/kicks off dividends and capital gains. I am transferring the assets to my Vanguard tIRA and will then do a conversion to the Roth–pre tax money only. I was pleased to discover that Schwab leaves about three cents in my non deductible traditional Ira after I convert to my Roth account. For 2018, you’re allowed to contribute up to $5,500 ($6,500 if you’re age 50 or older). Maybe. Hi, I have a traditional IRA and a Roth IRA on TD. That had to occur on Wednesday (January 6th). through the back door). my current 401K is with vanguard. 1. The first thing you should know is that the one-year rule doesn’t apply. (Line 14 on 2021 form = Line 2 of 2022 form), Line 15b – You didn't take money out of an IRA to help you survive a disaster, so $0. 01/14/2021 23:18 Subject: Re:Backdoor Roth through Fidelity. Or is it better to rollover all I have (including the 2016 and 2017 contributions) into current company’s 403b and just backdoor 2018. Yes, I learnt the hard way! If you still have a Traditional IRA balance on … 4) Tax-deferred accounts of any type (401K, 403B, 457, DBP etc) If you were to do a $6,000 nondeductible contribution and total Roth conversion through your empty IRA (called a backdoor Roth) in May 2019 and then complete an IRA Rollover of $1M in … I believe I go to and apply online for the EIN. We’ve avoided the back-door ROTH because my wife and I both have substantial SEP-IRAs from an S-corp with other employees. That number increases to $56,000 … As you can see, a Roth conversion of a non-deductible traditional IRA contribution without any gains is a taxable event, it's just that the tax bill is zero for it. Back when I worked at Charles Schwab as an “Investment Specialist” between 2000-2002, I remember hearing that Charles Schwab (the man, not the company) used to make a non-deductible IRA contribution every year. I agree it gets tricky with employees, and sometimes a Backdoor Roth IRA isn’t worth what you may have to do to get it. I started doing them last year. I don’t think Vanguard phone reps are authorized to provide guarantees about tax advice such as this rep did. This can be done in a minute or two online at Vanguard and is essentially the same process as opening the traditional IRA. Per the instructions, you file a separate 8606 for each inherited IRA. Line 13 is the same as line 3, so tax due is zero. As Jim mentioned before, once you have maximized your 401k and other similar accounts, this provides a great tax diversification. The term IRA stands for individual retirement arrangement, not account like most people assume. Where do things like making a 529 account for kids come in this hierarchy ? You can also subscribe without commenting. made your 2020 contribution in 2021). Line 6 is zero in a typical year. (My auto investment is $5500 on December 6 each year). ... Line balance must be paid down to zero by February 15 each year. I just forgot to take the screenshot before I actually did it. It just seems a little confusing. There is no limit to the number of Roth IRA’s that one has, right? That’s why the backdoor Roth IRA is a great option for many high-income earners who still want to enjoy the tax benefits that a Roth IRA offers. Leave it in cash (i.e. Step 4 confuses a few people. I maximize this contribution every year and have looked into converting the all funds into a 401k for the sole purpose of doing a backdoor Roth, but my accountant and I are unclear how future sep-ira … So add one year to anything you see here. Once I get to the point I want to save amounts above that I will set up a defined benefit plan. This rule basically says that if the sum of a bunch of legal steps is illegal, then you can’t do it. If you have enough income that you need to do a backdoor Roth, you should have enough to fund it all in one fell swoop. Probably you may be asking about the annual rollover rule. However, many higher-income earners are not eligible to contribute to a Roth IRA. 12) 0 The process will be slightly different at Fidelity, Schwab, and other IRA custodians, but the basic steps will remain the same. I am hoping she either a) Starts up her own business earning at least $14k per year so she can open a individual 401k or b) Goes back to work as a teacher and opens a 403b that accepts rollovers. I don’t mix cream with coffee. To my understanding when I recently rolled over a SEP IRA to a Solo 401K, and now about to do a backdoor conversion is that you can have have a SEP or other retirement vehicles, you just can not contribute to them the same year you do the conversion. Absolutely. Lastly, research thoroughly on the financial institution or brokerage that will best suit you.If you are starting, you may consider Roth’s Account broker list and compare them to choose the best. Also, don’t forget 5500 for your spouse, which doubles all the figures Jim just mentioned. Since no conversion step was done during the calendar year 2020, you only have to fill out lines 1-3 and 14. 2. If you find you have a few pennies left in the account and are worried you'll get pro-rated, take a look at this post: Pennies and the Backdoor Roth IRA. Backdoor Roth IRA Contributions & Distributions. Next, convert the non-deductible traditional IRA to a Roth IRA by transferring the money from your traditional IRA into your Roth IRA at the same fund company. Transfer the 6k to the Roth IRA using the new online Roth conversion tool (looks like it just does a regular internal transfer between linked accounts? One is contributing to a Roth IRA via the backdoor (always a good move) and the other is pre-paying tax on a tax-deferred account, which may or may not be a good move. I get the concept that its another avenue of money to draw from if you retire “early” esp if before 59.5 and you need money to float you. You can have an individual 401K at Vanguard, although you’ll probably need to open one elsewhere to do an initial rollover of your SEP since Vanguard’s doesn’t accept them. The conversion step will obviously be in 2019, but that’s fine. 1) 5500 Unless of course I am completely misinformed by my CPA. Exactly. Isn’t that amazing? Does it beat the Fidelity AmEx (2% on everything) plus PenFed (5% on gas)? $5500 spends one day in the account, then it is all gone. And we just ignore that because the 8606 cleans it up? I don’t quite understand these…can you explain? No tax is due. You are limited to $5500 total ($6500 if over 50) per person into traditional IRAs and Roth IRAs for the year. It’s only closing credit accounts that affects it. If so, you will have to pay some taxes on your 2013 conversion, which may not be a big deal depending on what exactly you mean by “in process now” with regard to getting your SEP balance to zero. Currently the value of the trad IRA is less than the sum of my nondeductible contributions plus 401k rollover(due to market losses). It’s quite possible in a few more years you could owe a lot more on a conversion. Thanks for clarifying, For the past several years I have been making annual contributions of $5,500 each to non-deductible IRAs for both myself and my wife. Since the market goes up most of the time, I would convert yours sooner rather than later. You’re able to reap all the benefits of a Roth account while still bringing in more than the annual income limits. I am also investing in Real Estate, paying off significant student loans etc, saving etc…. I have 40k in a traditional IRA that was initially rolled over from a prior employers 403b. Merrill Edge? I have a regular Roth IRA for me and my wife. It seems to me to be easier to just buy stocks/funds through an account like scottrade for accumulating retirement monies to be available if I want to retire early. So they’re above and beyond anything on that list. I can’t find a single Vanguard NTF fund at TD Ameritrade…there are no-commission ETF’s and no-load mutuals but I can’t find any Vanguard NTF’s…I was wanting to do what you are suggesting there, but was put-off by TDA’s $49.99 fee for No-Load funds (which most the Vanguard’s are). Every year or two, Vanguard changes their process slightly. In fact, many parents “match” their teen’s income, so all of it goes into a Roth IRA, but they still get to spend it all thanks to the Bank of Mom and Dad. Anonymous: Crap. For now its not a reality. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. So YOUR 1099 will say the same thing, that you have $5500 in taxable distributions? What you advise for her? Retirement Savings Without a Retirement Account, The Backdoor Roth IRA Made Easy - Podcast #194, Comparing 14 Types of Retirement Accounts. Going forward, based on my understanding it would be easier to open individual 401k and max it out for 2019, open a traditional IRA max it out for 2019 and do backdoor roth conversion. You can’t put $19,500 into an IRA, that’s a 401(k). Notice a couple of things here. Very helpful. Investing the Traditional IRA in Long-Term Assets and Letting It Sit. Why would I convert $230k of tax deferred into a Roth IRA and pay taxes when I’m in the highest bracket right now? That page looks like this: In the first step, you simply choose to convert the entire account. It was free. You stated, “is essentially the same process as opening the traditional Roth IRA.” I believe you meant “traditional IRA”, not “traditional Roth IRA”. Work through Form 8606 and you’ll see why. Note also that a Backdoor Roth IRA is primarily a two-step process, an IRA contribution and a Roth conversion. Or do only those belonging to the individual doing the backdoor Roth count? I’ll have to check into recharacterizing the 2013 conversion–don’t know much about it. They aren’t the same thing. I chose to keep the SEP till the end of the year to maximize contributions for that year, and then rolled it over late Dec. Fire Your Financial Advisor Online Course. What can I do? Putting money into an IRA is just like transferring between checking and savings, with a couple extra steps since it's at a different "bank". But, if the Roth 401(k) is not an option, or you just want to put away even more money to grow tax-free, and you are making too much money for the Roth IRA, enter the “backdoor Roth IRA.” … You’re about to learn all about the pro-rata rule. This level tends to go up about $500 every two years or so to keep up with … Should You Make Roth or Traditional 401(k) Contributions? If i contribute 5500 in December 2015, then make another contribution in 1/2016, do I just indicate that I made a single contribution for my taxes in 4/2016 and put the second contribution on the tax return in 4/2017? If you are under age 59 ½ and you roll a tax-deferred plan to a backdoor Roth IRA, then you will also face a 10% penalty to access the money in the new Roth IRA anytime within the next 5-year period starting on January 1 st of the calendar year … Will my older trad IRA (with untaxed money in it) be any hindrance to this plan? Yes, you can do a 2015 contribution between Jan 1 2015 and April 15 2016 and a 2016 contribution between Jan 1 2016 and April 15 2017. Is there actually a minimum amount of earnings you must have to open a Solo 401K? Thanks! If I prefer to invest my SEP with vanguard funds I don’t want to place my money with a different firm. Make your 2014 contribution, then convert the whole thing. Keep in mind that married and single contribute differently. With Fidelity I discussed opening SEP IRA contributing for 2018, then opening individual 401k/ traditional IRA –> roth conversion for 2019 + rolling over my 2018 SEP IRA contribution to my individual 401k to avoid any problem with the Pro-Rata Calculation. Before I get into it, realize that if you are a low earner you can just contribute DIRECTLY to a Roth IRA and skip this Backdoor Roth IRA process. How to Increase Your Operational Cash Flow, P/E Ratio and Its Benefits In Personal Finance, Understanding Itemized Deductions for Beginners, SDN Dental School Admission Tips and Tricks, What is a Put Option and How to Trade Them. 6) Moderate interest debt I do some disability reviews/surveys that earn me $500-6000/yr – do I have to have an EIN to open a Solo 401K? If you understand the Backdoor Roth IRA, these little tweaks are no big deal. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but a Roth isn’t always the best strategy for high income earners. I’d probably be willing to do the extra work to do the 2018 Roth but I’m not quiet maxing out my SEP 2018 I’m close. I would probably do the SEP first if I were in my peak earnings years. The Backdoor Roth IRA IS a no-brainer because you’re comparing a tax-free Roth IRA to a taxable account or a non-deductible traditional IRA and the Roth IRA always wins that comparison. Not only does this provide an additional $6,000 each ($7,000 each if you and your spouse are over 50) of tax-protected and (in most states) asset-protected space for both 2020 and 2021, but it allows for more tax diversification in retirement. Third, the prorata calculation only has to do with dollars in IRAs, not the number of accounts. And with a Roth, there is no RMD at age … When you fill out your taxes, you do own up to that 1099 but it gets negated by the 8606? Some brokerages allow you to do the contribution, conversion, and investments steps all in the same day. I managed to do that with my TSP money a few years ago. Thanks! Most brokers allow new clients to apply online. I accidentally contributed directly to my Roth IRA instead of my traditional IRA first and then converting. I’m not sure how your 401(k) deductions were set up. So I thought I’d put together a basic step-by-step tutorial people can refer to when they do this. I want to open a Solo 401 K, but have some reservations as I quoted you here, because I have double the amount in my TIRA. Chris W. Rea. So, I’ve been on the phone with Vanguard and Fidelity to look into a couple of things and I wanted to see if you could clarify because Vanguard has me confused. But this is the 2021 form and since you converted your entire traditional IRA, this will be $0. I try not to print much to stay green, but sometimes when you are going over stuff with your spouse it helps to have a written copy.